Mr. McKERNAN. I am not sure. If you are talking about the moratorium that is being suggested on the development of the deep seabed, it seems to me that the U.S. position is pretty clear in that we are opposed to a moratorium. We do not believe that our industry should be prevented from developing, and using its technology in developing, deep sea resources such as mining the manganese nodules and, of course, progress has proceeded very rapidly in terms of the state of the art. Senator PELL. You do not see a real danger, though, of this moving along with the five-nation approach so we have a division of the seabeds there? Mr. McKERNAN. Well, I hope not. I think that there is a pretty good chance for us to negotiate a position that is substantially akin to that generally pursued by the President in his earlier statements in 1970. It seems to me that we are not deviating from these general objectives at the present time. OTHER APPROACH TO SURVIVAL OF NORTHWEST ATLANTIC FISHERIES Senator PELL. I realize you are here for the Department of State' but you represent the whole executive branch. During the spring meetings of ICNAF the Commerce Department representative, Mr. Lynn, said that, "We in the United States are convinced that fisheries in the Northwest Atlantic can survive only if there is a well-nigh revolutionary change within the commission equalling the revolutionary change in fishing, or alternatively, if the commission and the international cooperative approach which it symbolizes are abandoned in favor of another approach." What is this other approach? Mr. McKERNAN. I think that Secretary Lynn was really expressing the view of the United States that there had to be a greater preference for the coastal States and ultimately more control by the coastal States. I think he undoubtedly had in mind-at least I did when I read that portion of his statement-the U.S. position that we have advocated in the law of the sea meetings, that is, greater coastal State responsibility in the conservation of the resources and coastal State preference for coastal resources. Senator PELL. I think this concept is one with which all of us in this area agree. The Stratton Commission worked at it one way. The White House position, which is excellent, does just the reverse but still gives that certain control to the adjacent nation, which is only fair. Mr. McKERNAN. Yes. Senator PELL. And this will continue to be, I would hope, our policy and would give some protection to our fishermen off of New England and the other areas who need a certain extra protection just as the fishermen off the coast of Mexico or Brazil need a certain extra protection in view of the fact that it is their own country that is involved. Mr. McKERNAN. Yes. JURIDICAL CHANGES ACCEPTABLE TO UNITED STATES Senator PELL. Lynn was also quoted as saying that the United States is ready to accept another solution involving juridical changes before it will tolerate the destruction of U.S. fisheries. Do these juridical changes include the creation of an exclusive fisheries zone? Mr. McKERNAN. Our position at the present time is in favor of a species approach rather than an exclusive economic zone or exclusive fishery zone. We are advocating essentially a nonexclusive zone, and that is our position at the present time. WOULD BILATERAL TREATIES BE BETTER THAN ICNAF AGREEMENT? Senator PELL. I understand the bilateral fishery agreement signed with Poland and Russia has been reasonably successful. In view of this, do you think a series of bilateral treaties would be better than the ICNAF agreement? Mr. McKERNAN. It is hard for me to see how we could negotiate with 16 nations or more. In fact, there are one or two nations fishing off the coast who are not even members of ICNAF. I cannot see any other way than a multilateral agreement at the present time, with our present interpretation of international law. NATIONALITY OF VESSELS RESPONSIBLE FOR DAMAGE TO LOBSTER POTS Senator PELL. But from the viewpoint of my lobster fishermen and the damage done to their pots, could you hazard a guess as to the nationality of the vessels that have been responsible for the damage? What percentage are Russian, what percentage American, what percentage Polish, Canadian? Mr. McKERNAN. I cannot tell you the damage by American trawlers. I do not know how much damage there has been done to the lobster pots by American trawlers because that has not been brought to my attention. I think that the major complaints have been against Soviet vessels, but there have been complaints against Polish vessels and at least one against Japanese vessels in the area. I think it is roughly related to the size of the fleets. The Soviet fleet is by far the largest and so, of course, most of the complaints have been against Soviet interference with our fixed gear. It is my opinion that we have helped this situation and that the amount of interference is substantially less than it was. There is a tremendous amount of fixed gear out there. There are a lot of complaints by the foreign fleets-operating in what they consider to be the high seas of the fact that we have spotted fixed gear all over the place and essentially usurped the fishing grounds, grounds where they fished in past years. Frankly, this does not bother the U.S. Government. This is a legal way to operate; it is off our own coasts and we are delighted that our fishermen who have been hurt in so many ways can find lobsters as an economic way of making their living in view of the fact that some of the other species have been depleted by these same foreign fleets. COMPARATIVE NUMBER OF COMPLAINTS Senator PELL. Do the conditions seem better in the past few months than they were a year ago? Do you get less complaints, about the same, or more? Mr. McKERNAN. I think we have fewer complaints at the present time. COMPLAINTS IN LAST 3 MONTHS Senator PELL. For the sake of argument, how many complaints have you had in the last arbitrary period, say, 3 months roughly? Mr. MCKERNAN. I do not think we have had any in the last month. I think the last complaints we have had were last spring. COAST GUARD VESSEL ON STATION Senator PELL. Does the Coast Guard still keep a vessel or cutter on station? Mr. McKERNAN. Yes, the Coast Guard has been extremely cooperative in this. They have, in my judgment, done everything possible to cooperate with the fishermen and with our department and the National Marine Fishery Service. With the number of vessels and funds and equipment available, I personally think that a very good job is being done by the Coast Guard. AGGRAVATION AND FRUSTRATION OF CONSTITUENCY Senator PELL. I think the aggravation and frustration of my own constituents is tremendous-and this is not your fault-because of their equipment. When they go out there in their old fishing boats, some of them still side trawlers, and see these really tremendous operations outsweeping us, our men are very, very disturbed, as are we who have the responsibility for representing them in this regard. We see an industry that has been a noble one with a long heritage in our part of the country really being throttled and young men no longer as desirous of going into it. We started a program in our university, the University of Rhode Island, for training fishermen, and it is proving harder to get recruits. There are still enough, but there is still a tendency not to want to go into the business because of its arduousness and its lack of reward, and the feeling that we are being swept off the seas. ICELAND'S EXTENSION OF HER TERRITORIAL WATERS In connection with Iceland, I notice that Iceland and Great Britain are both members of ICNAF. Will Iceland's extension of her territorial waters to 50 miles create problems within the framework of ICNAF? Also, have we taken any action with regard to Iceland and her claims? Mr. McKERNAN. We, of course, have let the Icelandic Government know that we prefer actions of that type to be done by multilateral agreement rather than by unilateral actions. At the same time, of course, we are sympathetic toward Iceland's view that she has a special interest in the stocks of essentially coastal species off her coasts, such as cod. We have tried to encourage Iceland to take the same approach we have; that is, to push for the acceptance of the U.S. proposal in the law of the sea, which we think would take care of the real problems that Iceland has. I am not privy to all of the immediate problems that Iceland has but, of course, Iceland's point is that, "Well, this is going to take some time and we cannot wait." That has brought about this action, which is unfortunate in terms of our efforts in the law of the sea. As to the first part of your question, I really do not see that this will have any particular effect on the operations of ICNAF. STEPS TO PRESERVE DEPLETED HADDOCK STOCKS Senator PELL. During the spring meeting of ICNAF an agreement was reached to phase out the high seas fishing of Atlantic salmon, but, as you know, the haddock are pretty well gone in our part of the world. What steps are being taken to preserve the depleted stocks of haddock? Mr. MCKERNAN. The regulations on haddock are really quite severe. We have limited both the area of fishing, that is, we have some closed areas, and the catch through a very, very small quota-a quota so small that indeed the only significant fishing on haddock at the present time is by the United States and Canada. The other nations have really refrained from fishing haddock stocks since they are in very, very low abundance. Now what we need is essentially a gift from God, a successful year class of haddock-successful spawning of the depleted stocks. To the best of my knowledge, this has not occurred yet, but at least the catch has been reduced very substantially indeed. There is no real fishery on the haddock stocks except by United States and Canada at the present time. Senator PELL. Thank you. MERCURY CONTENT OF SWORDFISH This is somewhat off the subject, but you are, I guess, the most informed man in Government in the general field of fishery. I noticed with some interest an article in the press some time ago that they had found a stuffed swordfish in the Smithsonian which had just as much mercury content as the ones today. I wondered about it as a matter of very personal concern. Do you ever personally eat swordfish too, or not? Mr. McKERNAN. I would if I could get ahold of some. Senator PELL. So would I. I thank you very much indeed for coming here. As you know, I have enjoyed this hearing very much indeed. Excuse the detailed questions, but they are of great interest to the subcommittee. Mr. McKERNAN. Thank you. Senator PELL. Our next subject for discussion are the amendments to the Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS Convention). (The amendments referred to follow:) 92D CONGRESS 2d Session } SENATE { EXECUTIVE AMENDMENTS TO THE CONVENTION FOR THE SAFETY OF LIFE AT SEA, 1960 MESSAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TRANSMITTING ELEVEN AMENDMENTS TO THE CONVENTION FOR JULY 24, 1972.—Amendments were read the first time and, together U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE WASHINGTON: 1972 |